Melaney Oldenhoff, Founder and Creative Director of WhatWeCherish, a curated market place for handmade accessories and home décor from the African continent. Melaney shares how she pivoted from New York-based fashion stylist to joining the vanguard of African design in Johannesburg. Her story is a testament to endurance and vision, championing artisans while navigating the intricacies of e-commerce and forging a new path for women-owned and black-owned brands.
In our conversation, Melaney outlines her amazing journey from inspiration to launch and discusses the importance of knowing when to pivot. Melaney recently transitioned WhatWeCherish from direct-to-customer to a business-to-business model, which has been instrumental in her mission to amplify the voices of African creators in the world's creative economy. Melaney's journey is bigger than just selling products; it's a vision that centers new narratives about African creators and reinforcing Africa's leadership in sustainably designed products.
Melaney's journey will inspire you to be curious about what the rest of the African continent has to offer.
LINKS AND MENTIONS
WhatWeCherish is on Instagram - https://www.instagram.com/whatwecherish/
Melaney will be happy to hear directly from you too - https://www.instagram.com/melaneyoldenhof/
Visit the company website and see the beautiful designs - https://whatwecherish.com/
Thebe Magugu - https://www.thebemagugu.com/
Rate and Review Shades and Layers on Apple Podcasts
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1
00:00:03
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Shades and Layers.
00:00:05
I'm your host, kutoanos Kosanarechi, and on this episode
00:00:09
we are talking curated, sustainable African luxury.
00:00:13
My guest is Melanie Oldenhoff, founder and creative director of
00:00:18
what we Cherish, a curated marketplace for handcrafted
00:00:22
design from the African continent.
00:00:24
After a decade of working as a fashion stylist in New York City
00:00:29
, melanie is no stranger to being her own boss, except this
00:00:33
time around.
00:00:34
She is leveraging her work as an outside consultant and
00:00:37
applying it, as she works directly with brands and
00:00:41
presents them to the world.
00:00:42
What we Cherish features brands that Melanie feels are never
00:00:46
presented in the world's creative economy.
00:00:48
They are well designed, women owned mostly black owned and
00:00:52
sustainability focused brands from the African continent.
00:00:56
In our conversation, melanie outlines her amazing journey
00:01:00
from inspiration to launch and discusses the importance of
00:01:04
knowing when to pivot.
00:01:06
Let's start at the very beginning of Melanie Oldenhoff's
00:01:10
career.
00:01:11
Speaker 2: I would like to go a little bit back in there.
00:01:13
I mean, I spent the majority of my career as a fashion editor
00:01:18
and wardrobe stylist, you know, being surrounded in the world of
00:01:21
luxury and you know, even though this was very creative
00:01:25
and I really really love all the experience that I did, I was
00:01:30
for a decade in New York City.
00:01:31
I was 10 years in New York and before that I was in Amsterdam.
00:01:34
I studied in Amsterdam.
00:01:35
I felt like something was lacking and for me, that really
00:01:40
was like kind of the fast fashion sector that, in a way,
00:01:43
was still kind of like incomplete for me personally and
00:01:47
because I always worked as a consultant, I landed in 2019
00:01:52
literally in South Africa.
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Speaker 1: Okay, oh, that's recent.
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Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not that long ago, I was pregnant, seven
00:01:59
months pregnant.
00:02:00
At that time I did most of my pregnancy in New York.
00:02:02
My partner is from South Africa and I landed here and I saw
00:02:07
like so much creativity and so much beautiful products and I
00:02:12
was literally, like you know, fresh from New York.
00:02:14
I didn't know much about Africa in general and I was like, okay
00:02:17
, wow, like why are we not having any of these products
00:02:21
overseas, because I'm sure that any of the people in my network
00:02:24
will definitely love these products.
00:02:27
So that's kind of like where I think it started brewing a
00:02:31
little bit and I basically was looking also for kind of a new
00:02:36
journey.
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I mean, I thought I said I've been a fashion editor and
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working in fashion basically my whole career and I was kind of
00:02:43
had a little bit of the feeling of like, been there, done that,
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I want something new I want something different, and so I
00:02:50
started the idea of building an e-commerce store and now selling
00:02:54
these products overseas to Europe and to the UK.
00:02:59
So I started working and then COVID hit us very badly, you
00:03:02
know, in 2020.
00:03:04
So I had the time for like a very long maternity leave and
00:03:08
also the time to start like writing on my business plan and
00:03:12
my ideas that I had.
00:03:13
And that's kind of like the beginning of what we cherish,
00:03:17
that I had this idea of like okay, I moved to the other side
00:03:20
of the world.
00:03:21
How can I stay also in contact, you know, with the US and with
00:03:26
Europe, and I see all these beautiful products and I'm going
00:03:29
to try this, you know.
00:03:30
So it was coming from a very yeah.
00:03:33
I mean, I don't know if it was naive.
00:03:35
Speaker 1: That's great.
00:03:36
No, no, yeah, but you tell me, was it naive?
00:03:40
Speaker 2: I mean I learned a lot.
00:03:41
I mean I worked on the, always on the back end of, like
00:03:46
creating imagery for e-commerce, but I've never worked.
00:03:49
I was always a consultant, so I was always a third party, but I
00:03:52
never worked inside the corporate Right that thing,
00:03:56
knowing every single detail of, like different departments and
00:03:59
what is needed.
00:03:59
So I definitely have to say, like switching to
00:04:02
entrepreneurship in the last two years I call it my personal MBA
00:04:06
.
00:04:06
Speaker 1: I learned a lot Absolutely.
00:04:09
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not sure if, like you, know what is
00:04:10
needed and probably like beginner's mistakes, but also
00:04:14
the things that I just didn't have, the knowledge of right,
00:04:16
and you just learn it.
00:04:18
Speaker 1: As you go along.
00:04:19
Yes, yes, what were some of the mistakes that stood out for you
00:04:23
?
00:04:23
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like I'm still in the middle of it.
00:04:25
I mean like, for instance I don't know if it really mistakes
00:04:30
, but more like a learning journey where you know starting
00:04:34
an e-commerce website I guess if it's just your own website,
00:04:37
like something simple, it's quite easy.
00:04:40
But being in South Africa, where you're dealing with like a
00:04:44
lot of import taxes and high, high logistic costs If you want
00:04:48
to ship things overseas, you know everything that comes with
00:04:51
that import tax.
00:04:52
And how do you implement these costs now into your product?
00:04:56
Because your product is maybe, let's say, I don't know 20 US
00:05:00
dollars and your shipping cost is 60 US dollars, just to give
00:05:04
an example.
00:05:04
Like nobody's going to buy your product, you know.
00:05:07
So I needed a lot of time of actually becoming now a
00:05:11
financial person, like diving into the numbers and speaking to
00:05:16
people like how do you do this Pricing?
00:05:18
Speaker 1: strategy yeah.
00:05:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, pricing strategy.
00:05:21
But also, like, how do I implement this into a e-commerce
00:05:25
website that I've never.
00:05:27
I didn't even know WordPress.
00:05:29
I mean, I had to teach myself WordPress.
00:05:31
I had to teach like everything from scratch.
00:05:33
So what is SEO?
00:05:35
What is technical SEO?
00:05:36
What are all the things that come with e-commerce, digital
00:05:39
marketing?
00:05:39
So I learned a lot.
00:05:41
I'm not saying I'm there yet, I'm still learning but for me,
00:05:46
the journey was also part of what I'm really enjoying.
00:05:50
Speaker 1: Right, so you're still enjoying it.
00:05:52
Speaker 2: But what is?
00:05:52
I am, I am, but your question is like what is what we chair?
00:05:55
So what we chair is basically started off as an e-commerce
00:06:00
platform that was celebrating African contemporary design and
00:06:07
arts and crafts in a more like luxurious way, bringing like a
00:06:12
curated, contemporary luxury products to you or to the
00:06:16
customer, with a sustainable angle in it of like supporting
00:06:22
small businesses.
00:06:23
Most of my friends are female owned, half of them are black
00:06:27
female owned, so there's a lot of that involved in the whole
00:06:32
package that I'm.
00:06:33
Speaker 1: Why was that important to you?
00:06:36
Speaker 2: Why is it important to me?
00:06:37
Well, I mean for me.
00:06:38
I mean, even though I'm very light-skinned, like I'm coming
00:06:41
from a mixed race family, so it's not just.
00:06:46
It's not just.
00:06:47
You know, I grew up in the Netherlands but I've experienced
00:06:51
both sides, so I don't identify myself as only like as a white
00:06:56
person, even though maybe, depending on where you are,
00:07:00
Exactly it depends Exactly.
00:07:03
I know that's true, but for me I was always seen like I grew up
00:07:07
in a very white environment where I was seen as exotic or as
00:07:11
like different, because I had very curly hair and, like you
00:07:14
know, bigger lips, but then I still have blue eyes, so it's
00:07:17
like what's going on there.
00:07:18
So I think that is definitely, if you go back to like the core,
00:07:22
core, I think that's like part of it.
00:07:24
I think also I grew up with a mother that was it's always been
00:07:28
very involved in.
00:07:30
You know, she worked in like a refugee center.
00:07:32
She's like Hypno-terapist.
00:07:35
So I come from quite an old hippie background.
00:07:38
Right, right.
00:07:40
Speaker 1: I didn't want to use the word yes.
00:07:42
Speaker 2: Yes, I didn't know the other way to describe it,
00:07:45
but so I've always been very much in touch.
00:07:48
Like you know, my mother used to bring me to ashrams and, like
00:07:51
you know, alternative unconventional yes yes, and like
00:07:56
other cultures, and I think I always felt very, also attracted
00:08:00
to that and I guess, coming to South Africa from the luxury
00:08:04
industry in New York City in the US, I just saw that there's
00:08:09
quite a lot of my experience that I can bring to the table
00:08:12
here as well, right, that I can use in a positive way.
00:08:16
And what I was mentioning before is like I definitely had
00:08:19
that feeling of like.
00:08:20
I don't know, it was almost a feeling of like.
00:08:22
I'm not giving back it anyway, I just make people make look
00:08:25
good and make them consume, but what can I do?
00:08:28
That also fills me more as a person myself.
00:08:31
So I'm not stepping out of the luxury industry.
00:08:34
I'm not stepping out, you know, of the fashion and lifestyle,
00:08:37
but I'm just doing more approach to it, yeah different approach
00:08:41
of like conscious consumerism.
00:08:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah so I see that there are quite a few,
00:08:47
not e-commerce only, but you know a lot of small brands like
00:08:51
you have on your website.
00:08:53
You know, with this approach of handmade, there's a whole
00:08:57
movement of made in Africa.
00:08:59
What do you think is happening there?
00:09:01
What's this trajectory?
00:09:04
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the influence of African design,
00:09:09
like internationally, has always been there.
00:09:12
I think in the past designers borrowed or maybe stealing just
00:09:17
how you call it from African cultural heritage, depending on
00:09:21
how you look at it.
00:09:22
And I think now we are more at a point, I mean, if I read
00:09:27
articles and if I see what's happening that African fashion
00:09:30
or an Africa, you know, has gained more global recognition,
00:09:35
I think, and the influence is more recognized and seen, I
00:09:40
think, now worldwide in the fashion industry.
00:09:42
You know where I think it was always there, where you know,
00:09:46
like lots of designs would go to Africa, would go to Morocco, I
00:09:49
mean, think even back at like, if they're Saint Laurent, he was
00:09:51
super inspired by, you know, north Africa.
00:09:54
It was one of the first designers to use black models on
00:09:57
his runway, maybe he was even the first, if I'm correct.
00:10:00
And the use of like bold colors and patterns and, yeah, all
00:10:06
this reflection of like African landscape, I think.
00:10:08
So you know, if you look at Ankara and Kentay cloth, how it
00:10:13
became like, so popular and yeah , I just think that it's more
00:10:17
like globally recognized now.
00:10:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like a natural development of
00:10:22
and just also, you know, acknowledging where things come
00:10:26
from.
00:10:26
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly that whole movement.
00:10:30
What you're saying, even if you , you know, if you look now at,
00:10:33
like, folk business, you see that there's much more attention
00:10:36
of like writing articles about African designers and like,
00:10:39
obviously, like with the table, my Google that won, like the
00:10:43
LFMH price, and like, yeah, you see more and you see, just, you
00:10:49
see it just more everywhere.
00:10:50
What you're saying, like it's definitely more on the surface,
00:10:53
which is, which is beautiful, because I think that recognition
00:10:56
is so deserved.
00:10:57
I feel like I'm still so new in a country I haven't even
00:11:02
traveled Africa yet like I can't say like I'm a speaker for,
00:11:06
like you know, pan-african, but I do love, I do love artisanal
00:11:11
work, I love craft, I love design and I just see a lot of
00:11:16
it here.
00:11:16
Speaker 1: So I'm just working with what I which much.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: I love yeah.
00:11:25
Speaker 1: Today's guest on Shades and Layers is Melanie
00:11:28
Oldenhoff, founder and creative director of what we Cherish, a
00:11:32
curated digital marketplace for sustainable African luxury.
00:11:36
There is no doubt that there has been a proliferation of
00:11:39
e-commerce platforms for African goods online, particularly
00:11:42
handcrafted fashion and accessories, and in the next
00:11:45
part of our conversation we discuss Melanie's take on the
00:11:50
drivers behind this development.
00:11:52
We also discuss how she recently transformed her
00:11:55
business model and added more services for her clients, as
00:11:59
well as why she considers what we cherish a collective.
00:12:01
So the artisanal side of things .
00:12:06
I see that a lot of African brands are focused on.
00:12:10
I would say, then, maybe slow design, yes, and you know, of
00:12:15
course, that brings with it its own challenges, because you can
00:12:18
scale maybe as quickly, and then you have to charge a lot more
00:12:23
for your goods, but then they end up getting consumed overseas
00:12:26
instead of locally.
00:12:27
I mean, how's that interplay working?
00:12:29
Interplay working in terms of, maybe, the brands that are on
00:12:33
your website as well.
00:12:35
Speaker 2: So to give you a little bit of insight.
00:12:38
So what I said, the original vision that I had, was like
00:12:42
creating the e-commerce website and direct to consumer and then
00:12:47
realizing also like how much money is needed in order to
00:12:52
become high in the Google ranking and competing with all
00:12:56
these big e-commerce websites.
00:12:59
I realized when I was talking to the vendors and to the brands
00:13:03
that there was actually just a lot of requests of like help
00:13:08
needed for visibility overseas.
00:13:11
So it didn't have to be specifically like an e-commerce
00:13:14
brand, but an e-commerce website that could also be like help of
00:13:18
like how do you photograph things for e-commerce purposes
00:13:21
or for marketing purposes, right , pr, marketing, all the aspects
00:13:28
that come with it.
00:13:29
So I decided just at the end of last year, while I was looking
00:13:34
at the website and everything, how things were going, that I
00:13:37
decided to go more business to business Instead of like
00:13:41
business to consumer, because with business to consumer, you
00:13:44
also only sell like one item at a time.
00:13:46
Now this item has to be made, this item has to be shipped and
00:13:50
what you say, there's very high cost that comes with it.
00:13:53
So, again, part of the entrepreneurial journey of like
00:13:56
feel an error, I guess, or not feel, but understanding better.
00:14:01
Yeah, just trying things out what you can do.
00:14:04
Yeah, trying things out.
00:14:05
So I've decided to go more business to business because I
00:14:08
work, because also I met more new people in the meantime and
00:14:12
I'm really loving, like you know , the African contemporary
00:14:16
design and like furniture and like what's happening out here
00:14:20
is just amazing.
00:14:21
So, yeah, so I'm working on that, like one of the brands
00:14:25
from Ghana they I mean, I'm talking with them to becoming
00:14:28
like a sales agency for them also.
00:14:30
So just to push more volume to break and more to stores, for
00:14:33
instance, instead of just the direct to consumer.
00:14:36
Speaker 1: Yes, oh, wow, ok, that's fantastic.
00:14:38
So then that means you're getting into the whole sales
00:14:42
space.
00:14:43
Speaker 2: Basically, yes yes, yeah, which is a whole new.
00:14:47
It's a new, a new part of the business plan.
00:14:50
Like that wasn't I mean I had I had in my mind when I started
00:14:54
the e-commerce site.
00:14:54
I remember I had a talk with one of the vendors that does
00:14:58
furniture and I was like it would be nice to have like kind
00:15:00
of an agency aspect of what we cherish as well, so that it's
00:15:04
really like a platform and not just a shop, you know, and
00:15:08
really being able to like tell the stories of these brands and
00:15:12
like why it's so beautiful.
00:15:14
And yeah, I think what I was talking with her.
00:15:17
I already had a conversation, but now it's coming more
00:15:20
actively on my path.
00:15:22
Speaker 1: So I'm taking that.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: That's exciting.
00:15:24
Speaker 1: Really, really exciting.
00:15:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
00:15:28
Speaker 1: You called yourself a collective.
00:15:29
Can you tell me what that means in real life?
00:15:35
Speaker 2: Well, well, I see I see a collective also as like
00:15:39
collaboration, right, and I feel like it's not, like it's me,
00:15:43
and then I am selling these brands.
00:15:45
So it's about me, I feel like it's about us and I think that's
00:15:49
the the collective part of like how I experience it, like, I
00:15:53
really think that like also changing the perception of, like
00:15:57
African goods, that one, one brand is not going to be enough
00:16:02
to showcase or push or show what is out there.
00:16:05
So I think as, yeah, so I think as a collective or as like a
00:16:09
group, you can show much, showcase much better all the
00:16:13
beautiful products that are being made here and that people
00:16:16
don't know about yet, yeah, so what's their?
00:16:19
reception and also in the working, yeah, and also in the
00:16:22
like working together with people, right, I mean, it's what
00:16:25
I said.
00:16:25
It's not like a one man show where it's like I'm telling you
00:16:28
what to do with this, what we're going to do, it's a collective,
00:16:31
it's like I'm working with you, you.
00:16:33
I also see I don't say vendors, normally as a partners, because
00:16:36
I feel like we do it all together to to work on this, you
00:16:40
know, to work on this showcasing all these beautiful
00:16:44
goods from from Africa.
00:16:46
Speaker 1: So how did you land your first client?
00:16:48
Speaker 2: Oh, Well, how did I land them?
00:16:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like did you decide?
00:16:54
Okay, these are the companies that need to be showcased.
00:16:58
I'm going to approach them, or yeah.
00:17:01
Speaker 2: It's actually kind of a cute story if I have the time
00:17:04
.
00:17:04
So when I met my partner in 2018, I was still living in New
00:17:09
York City I was visiting South Africa because I was here for a
00:17:14
job I was working at the time at the OTR2 tour for Beyonce and
00:17:18
Jaycee and I came to South Africa basically just for that.
00:17:21
So we met and, okay, we started spending time together and then
00:17:26
he came to New York City because he was working for
00:17:29
Afropunk at the time and he came to New York City because the
00:17:34
Brooklyn Afropunk was coming up and he brought me a little
00:17:40
wooden top with shea butter from Ghana and I was like.
00:17:46
and I was like, oh, this is so beautiful.
00:17:48
And he's like, yeah, a friend of mine gave it to me, Maria
00:17:51
McClory, of course.
00:17:52
How did I know?
00:17:52
So he brought it and I was obsessed with the look of that.
00:17:59
I was obsessed with the look of the product.
00:18:01
It was like a bamboo top and it was all in gray.
00:18:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen it, it was so pretty, yeah.
00:18:07
Speaker 2: And at the time I thought by myself and this was
00:18:10
before I even knew that I was going to move to South Africa I
00:18:13
was like, oh, maybe I should start an Amazon shop, because we
00:18:16
don't sell this here.
00:18:17
This would do so well.
00:18:18
So already these thoughts were there.
00:18:22
And then when I started doing research way further I fast
00:18:27
forward in the story when I was in South Africa, I started doing
00:18:30
research and I went back to that brand as well to look at
00:18:33
them and I wrote them.
00:18:35
I created a presentation of how I wanted the website to look
00:18:39
like and what my vision and my mission was for my e-commerce
00:18:44
platform.
00:18:44
And they said yes, and so they were actually the first also to
00:18:49
sign on with me and yeah, so the response was positive.
00:18:55
But then the real work started.
00:18:57
What I said I basically started reaching out with a concept to
00:19:03
defenders and they said yes, and they loved the presentation and
00:19:07
everything.
00:19:07
And then it was like okay.
00:19:08
Then I thought, oh, maybe I need like eight months to put this
00:19:12
together, and that became closer to two years to get it all
00:19:17
sorted.
00:19:17
But we're up and running now.
00:19:21
The website is online, it's there and I think it's something
00:19:27
that people can order.
00:19:28
But what I said like the focus from my entrepreneurial journey
00:19:30
is going more towards business to business, which means that I
00:19:37
am basically switching over more to like a wholesale agency and
00:19:40
also reaching out to like interior designers and
00:19:48
architects to showcase the products that are here and they
00:19:52
are often longer they are longer , and it's just a fact.
00:19:57
Speaker 1: It's just infrastructure also yeah.
00:20:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just infrastructure and like I can't.
00:20:01
You know, I know a lot of people are working on this to
00:20:04
make changes, but like I can't change this overnight, so you
00:20:07
also have to roll with what you have, and I think architects and
00:20:13
interior designers that there's a lot of them that don't know
00:20:15
how many amazing stuff there is here and by reaching out to them
00:20:21
, I started working from this year on like a big digital
00:20:26
lookbook that I will start like sending out so that if people
00:20:30
have projects that they work on with lead time, we can actually
00:20:34
produce these products and it's still slow fashion then in a way
00:20:38
, exactly, yeah, oh that's really really great.
00:20:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know how have you been received in
00:20:45
Europe and the UK, your target market.
00:20:48
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny, I got to.
00:20:50
I think the US is, I think Europe is quite open to it, but
00:20:54
I also do everything by myself with a couple of people, but not
00:20:59
like you know, it's not.
00:21:00
I'm still in the startup phase, that's not.
00:21:02
Let's just be real right.
00:21:03
So I mean, wwd wrote a little mentioning article and there was
00:21:10
another website from yeah, they wrote a little article when I
00:21:13
launched which I was like oh my gosh.
00:21:15
And then I'm like this is real now.
00:21:19
Speaker 1: Right yeah, the fashion Bible has written about
00:21:23
working cherished.
00:21:26
Speaker 2: And then there was a website in LA that also gave me
00:21:30
some attention, and now you so you know, I mean, I think I also
00:21:35
, yes, but I also really believe in like organic growth.
00:21:39
I don't think there is such a thing as like overnight success.
00:21:43
I mean unless maybe I don't know , some big investor is now like,
00:21:48
okay, let's invest in this, then you maybe see some suddenly
00:21:51
like a big visibility.
00:21:52
But I really believe in like organic growth and I still
00:21:55
myself have to get to know a lot of vendors, reaching out to a
00:21:59
lot of vendors.
00:22:00
You know portfolio growth.
00:22:02
There's so much to do and what is interesting is like that I
00:22:07
thought originally that I would only go to the US and Europe and
00:22:12
then I also partnered up with a brand from Mozambique that does
00:22:17
amazing like social, responsible work and also asked
00:22:21
me, like Mel, like you know, you're so good in talking to
00:22:24
people and like can you not just like sell me in South Africa?
00:22:26
And I did a pop-up shop just to try it out and it sold actually
00:22:30
quite well and I was like, oh wow, there is also maybe a
00:22:33
market here as well, Like why am I only looking at the other
00:22:37
side?
00:22:38
You know, the grass is always greener at the neighbors right,
00:22:43
so I was like wait, wait, there is also possibility here.
00:22:48
So again, this all happened kind of last year, because I was
00:22:51
only online for like a year.
00:22:52
This all happened last year.
00:22:54
So this is a switch happening where, like now, I also start
00:22:59
talking to people here, to start creating things for here as
00:23:04
well, which is very, very nice.
00:23:08
Speaker 1: That things go like that.
00:23:09
I would think it's probably better than international
00:23:12
shipping, because it's so hard to you know all the brands.
00:23:15
Speaker 2: I speak to it's man, you know.
00:23:18
Right, but I still believe that .
00:23:22
I really believe that if it's the right person listening, I
00:23:26
really believe that there is, you know, a growing popularity
00:23:29
in.
00:23:30
You know there's a growing popularity in African arts and
00:23:32
aesthetics.
00:23:33
There's a growing popularity in sustainability.
00:23:37
After COVID, there's a rise in what you say in consumer demand
00:23:42
for, like artisanal and handmade goods.
00:23:44
I really believe there's an under curated market.
00:23:48
You know, if you look at marketplaces that that are the
00:23:52
leading ones, like Etsy and Amazon, they're not curated.
00:23:55
Speaker 1: You know it's all like, if you, I remember yeah,
00:23:58
everybody and anybody.
00:23:59
Speaker 2: So that was also my thing, I think.
00:24:01
Coming more from like a fashion background, I was like I see so
00:24:05
many beautiful things like why are they not curated in the same
00:24:08
space?
00:24:09
You know, why are they like kind of getting lost, maybe on
00:24:13
an Etsy because they don't know where else to to showcase their
00:24:17
products?
00:24:18
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, so what are your ambitions for this
00:24:22
platform?
00:24:25
Speaker 2: Oh, they're big Good let's hear it.
00:24:29
I mean, I will be honest with you, I really would love to to
00:24:34
become like the best you know sustainable platform in the B2B
00:24:40
for African contemporary luxury products.
00:24:44
So that is in, that is, in relationship to.
00:24:49
That can be furniture and home, like lifestyle, but also for
00:24:54
clean, beauty and accessories.
00:24:56
I stepped out of fashion, I leave that to other people.
00:24:59
But yeah, within the, within the home and lifestyle group,
00:25:04
there's a lot there.
00:25:04
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
00:25:05
I'm so excited for you.
00:25:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have big, big , big plans, but you know, I
00:25:12
know it will take time.
00:25:13
It's nice, but it's nice to have dreams.
00:25:15
You know, without dreams who's gonna?
00:25:18
Speaker 1: oh, gonna make them right.
00:25:19
It's not worthwhile.
00:25:20
Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:21
This is Shades and Lears, and it's now time to get into
00:25:29
Melanie Oldenhoff's personal story and we will expand on how
00:25:33
her experiences as a young woman growing up in the Netherlands
00:25:37
have shaped her entrepreneurial journey.
00:25:39
We will get into the Shades and Lears rapid fire and finally
00:25:45
discuss Melanie's big dreams for what we cherish.
00:25:48
You mentioned that you had quite an unconventional
00:25:52
upbringing.
00:25:52
Is there anything else from way back then that you can remember
00:25:57
that pointed to how you know, like your career choice and how
00:26:02
you ended up where you are today ?
00:26:04
Speaker 2: Well, when I was young, young, I want to become a
00:26:07
doctor, a surgeon, and which is funny, I remember as a child I
00:26:15
was even watching you know like operations and stuff, but I
00:26:19
didn't make it to what do you?
00:26:22
Speaker 1: mean you were watching operations and stuff.
00:26:24
Speaker 2: Like when I was younger, I liked all those kind
00:26:27
of things, like things that were related to like doctor and and
00:26:31
surgeons, and my mother my mother told me that, yeah, I
00:26:34
wasn't, but now I'm even afraid of getting a needle in my.
00:26:37
So I don't think I would have been the best doctor, but I
00:26:42
think I was always very individual, quite, I guess I
00:26:47
mean collected.
00:26:48
I remember when I was around 14 that I was in a quite preppy
00:26:52
school, but then I would wear Dr Martens with with with flowers
00:26:56
and rip port pens and and a leather, vintage salmon color
00:27:02
coat, like like this crazy outfit.
00:27:05
So I think I always had like this sense of yeah, how do you
00:27:09
say aesthetics, or like being attractive to aesthetics and to,
00:27:14
you know, to beautiful things yeah to the beautiful things
00:27:18
that I found beautiful right of course, at the time.
00:27:22
Yeah, and very independent.
00:27:25
I mean I was a very independent child and you know I biked to
00:27:29
school and I don't know it's hard.
00:27:33
I almost have to ask my friend.
00:27:34
It's hard to tell about myself, but I definitely.
00:27:37
It's funny what I just did.
00:27:39
Last year I did an entrepreneurship course here in
00:27:43
South Africa and one of the the one of the things that they made
00:27:48
you do was you had to do a couple of personality tests to
00:27:52
see what kind of entrepreneur you are, and so what came out of
00:27:56
there is that I'm more like a hard-minded entrepreneur, so
00:28:00
which, if I look at that, it's funny, because it came out of
00:28:04
the personality test that it just basically fits with what
00:28:07
I'm actually doing right now.
00:28:10
Right, like, like collaboration .
00:28:12
I like to collaborate with people.
00:28:14
I don't like to work alone.
00:28:16
I'm empathetic, yeah, like all these like elements that that
00:28:20
comes to like more hard-minded or hard driven personality.
00:28:25
Speaker 1: So I think I'm in the right space yeah, yeah, yeah
00:28:31
yeah yeah, yeah, the reason I ask is because of my next
00:28:34
question, and it's to do with if you had to write a memoir right
00:28:39
, you mentioned that your mixed race.
00:28:42
You were something of an exotic kid when you were growing up,
00:28:46
but you know, if you had to summarize your life and give it
00:28:49
a title, what would you call it and why?
00:28:51
Speaker 2: ooh, I didn't look at it from a childhood point of
00:28:54
view.
00:28:55
Speaker 1: Oh, you can look at it from career, leisure career.
00:28:57
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah like maybe from from from from career
00:29:01
, I would say like something like fashion with purpose, a
00:29:05
journey from Amsterdam to Africa , oh nice, um, because you know
00:29:12
it started there.
00:29:13
I mean, I studied fashion, uh, management and technology, um,
00:29:17
so that's where I have a bachelor degree in and then I
00:29:20
obviously moved to New York and from New York to Africa, so I
00:29:24
can call it fashion with a purpose, like it's a journey,
00:29:26
right, a journey of, of learning everything and yeah, yeah, fun.
00:29:32
Speaker 1: That's what I, what would come to mind, yeah and if
00:29:35
you had to turn the book into a film, who would you pick to be
00:29:39
the lead actress in?
00:29:40
Speaker 2: that.
00:29:41
Um well, I really love Tracy Ellis Ross.
00:29:44
Um, I think she's very charismatic, she's confident,
00:29:48
she's funny.
00:29:49
She seems also like kind of an intuitive person similar spirit
00:29:52
to yours, yeah yeah, and I mean this is just.
00:29:57
This is not talking for myself, but I think she's a beautiful
00:29:59
woman, so I would be very honored if she would come to me
00:30:04
and then maybe if it was my younger me when I was younger,
00:30:07
maybe we'll be then Beesendaya or something.
00:30:09
It's fashionable, funny, a little bit quirky.
00:30:13
So yeah, but that's a question also, you started saying I love
00:30:19
that.
00:30:24
You are a local A local now, yes , Five years, so it goes fast.
00:30:31
I mean I'm already half of the time.
00:30:33
I was a decade in New York and I'm half a decade here.
00:30:36
So it's crazy how the time flies.
00:30:38
Yeah, but people will say that when they get older.
00:30:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I mean, and then once kids arrive,
00:30:44
that's it, it's over, like your sense of time is just it's gone
00:30:50
, yeah, yeah.
00:30:51
Great.
00:30:52
Is there anything that you would like to mention about what
00:30:56
we cherish that you think maybe we didn't touch on?
00:30:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely think for people that listen to
00:31:02
a podcast about entrepreneurship that it's nice to hear that
00:31:08
it's not always roses and roses and lavender.
00:31:13
Yeah yeah, I feel like often on the podcast and especially, as
00:31:16
I can say, like often, the American ones.
00:31:18
It's very much about what is it ?
00:31:19
The school of greatness?
00:31:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:22
Overnight success yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: Like what's fair, what you see a lot or what you
00:31:27
hear a lot, but it's not.
00:31:28
And I'm like in the middle of the journey, you know, to make
00:31:34
things happen.
00:31:35
And as far as I enjoy the journey, I'm also very blessed
00:31:40
and grateful that I have a partner that completely supports
00:31:43
me, because, thankfully, he has a nine to five job, because I
00:31:48
don't you know.
00:31:48
And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of things that come with it
00:31:54
.
00:31:54
That is really not that easy and , for instance, what I said,
00:31:57
like when I launched the e-commerce shop, like in my head
00:32:00
I was like, ah, I'm going to buy a BMW next week, you know.
00:32:06
But like you know, for instance , you just think you launched it
00:32:09
, you're like, oh enthusiastic.
00:32:10
You think like, and now it's going to happen, and then it's
00:32:12
just quiet, right, yeah.
00:32:14
And now, like, how do you deal with the fact that things are
00:32:18
not exactly as they are going by your plan?
00:32:21
And I think, with my personality and the luck I guess
00:32:26
that I have, that I've always been a freelancer is that I know
00:32:31
how to hustle.
00:32:32
Yeah, I hustle like no one else .
00:32:36
Speaker 1: Well, new York will do too right.
00:32:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, new York will do too.
00:32:38
So, no for sure.
00:32:41
And especially as a freelancer, if you don't have like a full
00:32:43
time job, you know, like you know getting clients continuing,
00:32:48
continuing those relationships, like all of that, it's like
00:32:51
it's so important.
00:32:52
So so, yeah, I want to say like it's not always everything is
00:32:56
not always how it looks like on Instagram, for sure, but I
00:33:00
definitely, really, really still believe in what I'm doing
00:33:04
Otherwise I wouldn't do it.
00:33:06
I really believe that there is a lot of growth possible and,
00:33:10
yeah, I have big visions.
00:33:11
I have big still big dreams of where it can go, like you know
00:33:15
someone, someone like Amira Rasu , who's doing the folklore.
00:33:18
Connect, yeah, amira, if you hear this, answer my LinkedIn
00:33:24
emails, please.
00:33:25
But you know, like someone like her, she's like a real example
00:33:30
for me of like you know how to bring product overseas, how to
00:33:34
bring it to the US, and but also , you know, when I look at those
00:33:38
stories, it's like she also got like 1.7 million US dollar in
00:33:42
like pre seeding funds.
00:33:44
Right, I don't have that, I have been doing it all from
00:33:47
scratch.
00:33:47
So it's like it's those things also make a big difference.
00:33:50
So I think, with with, we say, we say in Dutch like we roll
00:33:56
with with what we got right, we wrote about what we got.
00:33:59
So I think, as where I'm at now , I still feel very confident
00:34:03
that there's definitely a lot of possibilities.
00:34:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's lots of possibilities.
00:34:09
That's why I wanted to speak to you.
00:34:11
It's very exciting.
00:34:13
I mean, it's always these things that you're looking for
00:34:15
but can never find, and yeah, well, I hope, I really, really,
00:34:19
really hope that someone listening will approach you with
00:34:25
big funds, you know finances.
00:34:28
Speaker 2: I mean, is that a desire?
00:34:29
Speaker 1: Yes, or you're just fine going organically.
00:34:32
Speaker 2: I'm fine going organically.
00:34:33
I mean, if I also, when I said listen to podcasts, I sometimes
00:34:36
hear like stay away from the big money because it's not all like
00:34:40
bring, bring always.
00:34:41
Yeah, they want shares and they want all these things from you
00:34:45
as well.
00:34:45
So can you still do your creative vision or your
00:34:49
sustainable vision, what you envisioned originally?
00:34:51
Can you hold on to that when you get, like, the big money?
00:34:54
So I am actually happy to to start small and and start
00:35:01
building and building a trusting place, and I really believe in
00:35:04
like the right people come on your path when it's the right
00:35:07
time.
00:35:07
Absolutely, and yeah, that's that's my belief and I'm working
00:35:11
with with that and all the all the vendors and businesses and
00:35:15
the partners that I'm working with and they really believe in
00:35:18
it too, and so I think that's what you need as a collective is
00:35:22
that you have the same belief that what you're doing is the
00:35:26
right thing.
00:35:26
Speaker 1: Great yeah.
00:35:28
Speaker 2: Wonderful.
00:35:29
I love that.
00:35:30
Thank you, and where can people find you?
00:35:32
Well, they can go to what we cherish dot com.
00:35:35
They can go to the Instagram, which is at what we cherish.
00:35:39
They can probably find me, melanie Oldenhoff, if they want
00:35:42
to DM me directly.
00:35:44
Speaker 1: Why?
00:35:44
That's it from me.
00:35:45
Thank you so much for your time .
00:35:47
I'm glad we could get this together, given the current
00:35:50
challenges.
00:35:54
Speaker 2: It is actually right now, no load shedding.
00:35:56
Your morning, my early afternoon, so it's perfect.
00:36:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much, yeah, and that is all
00:36:05
from me this time around.
00:36:07
All socials and other links are included in the show notes.
00:36:11
Thank you for listening and for your ongoing support.
00:36:14
If you found value in this episode, please share it with a
00:36:18
friend.
00:36:18
Thank you and until next time.
00:36:22
Please do take good care.
Speaker 1: Hello and welcome to Shades and Layers.
00:00:05
I'm your host, kutoanos Kosanarechi, and on this episode
00:00:09
we are talking curated, sustainable African luxury.
00:00:13
My guest is Melanie Oldenhoff, founder and creative director of
00:00:18
what we Cherish, a curated marketplace for handcrafted
00:00:22
design from the African continent.
00:00:24
After a decade of working as a fashion stylist in New York City
00:00:29
, melanie is no stranger to being her own boss, except this
00:00:33
time around.
00:00:34
She is leveraging her work as an outside consultant and
00:00:37
applying it, as she works directly with brands and
00:00:41
presents them to the world.
00:00:42
What we Cherish features brands that Melanie feels are never
00:00:46
presented in the world's creative economy.
00:00:48
They are well designed, women owned mostly black owned and
00:00:52
sustainability focused brands from the African continent.
00:00:56
In our conversation, melanie outlines her amazing journey
00:01:00
from inspiration to launch and discusses the importance of
00:01:04
knowing when to pivot.
00:01:06
Let's start at the very beginning of Melanie Oldenhoff's
00:01:10
career.
00:01:11
Speaker 2: I would like to go a little bit back in there.
00:01:13
I mean, I spent the majority of my career as a fashion editor
00:01:18
and wardrobe stylist, you know, being surrounded in the world of
00:01:21
luxury and you know, even though this was very creative
00:01:25
and I really really love all the experience that I did, I was
00:01:30
for a decade in New York City.
00:01:31
I was 10 years in New York and before that I was in Amsterdam.
00:01:34
I studied in Amsterdam.
00:01:35
I felt like something was lacking and for me, that really
00:01:40
was like kind of the fast fashion sector that, in a way,
00:01:43
was still kind of like incomplete for me personally and
00:01:47
because I always worked as a consultant, I landed in 2019
00:01:52
literally in South Africa.
00:01:54
Speaker 1: Okay, oh, that's recent.
00:01:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's not that long ago, I was pregnant, seven
00:01:59
months pregnant.
00:02:00
At that time I did most of my pregnancy in New York.
00:02:02
My partner is from South Africa and I landed here and I saw
00:02:07
like so much creativity and so much beautiful products and I
00:02:12
was literally, like you know, fresh from New York.
00:02:14
I didn't know much about Africa in general and I was like, okay
00:02:17
, wow, like why are we not having any of these products
00:02:21
overseas, because I'm sure that any of the people in my network
00:02:24
will definitely love these products.
00:02:27
So that's kind of like where I think it started brewing a
00:02:31
little bit and I basically was looking also for kind of a new
00:02:36
journey.
00:02:37
I mean, I thought I said I've been a fashion editor and
00:02:39
working in fashion basically my whole career and I was kind of
00:02:43
had a little bit of the feeling of like, been there, done that,
00:02:46
I want something new I want something different, and so I
00:02:50
started the idea of building an e-commerce store and now selling
00:02:54
these products overseas to Europe and to the UK.
00:02:59
So I started working and then COVID hit us very badly, you
00:03:02
know, in 2020.
00:03:04
So I had the time for like a very long maternity leave and
00:03:08
also the time to start like writing on my business plan and
00:03:12
my ideas that I had.
00:03:13
And that's kind of like the beginning of what we cherish,
00:03:17
that I had this idea of like okay, I moved to the other side
00:03:20
of the world.
00:03:21
How can I stay also in contact, you know, with the US and with
00:03:26
Europe, and I see all these beautiful products and I'm going
00:03:29
to try this, you know.
00:03:30
So it was coming from a very yeah.
00:03:33
I mean, I don't know if it was naive.
00:03:35
Speaker 1: That's great.
00:03:36
No, no, yeah, but you tell me, was it naive?
00:03:40
Speaker 2: I mean I learned a lot.
00:03:41
I mean I worked on the, always on the back end of, like
00:03:46
creating imagery for e-commerce, but I've never worked.
00:03:49
I was always a consultant, so I was always a third party, but I
00:03:52
never worked inside the corporate Right that thing,
00:03:56
knowing every single detail of, like different departments and
00:03:59
what is needed.
00:03:59
So I definitely have to say, like switching to
00:04:02
entrepreneurship in the last two years I call it my personal MBA
00:04:06
.
00:04:06
Speaker 1: I learned a lot Absolutely.
00:04:09
Speaker 2: I mean, I'm not sure if, like you, know what is
00:04:10
needed and probably like beginner's mistakes, but also
00:04:14
the things that I just didn't have, the knowledge of right,
00:04:16
and you just learn it.
00:04:18
Speaker 1: As you go along.
00:04:19
Yes, yes, what were some of the mistakes that stood out for you
00:04:23
?
00:04:23
Speaker 2: Well, I feel like I'm still in the middle of it.
00:04:25
I mean like, for instance I don't know if it really mistakes
00:04:30
, but more like a learning journey where you know starting
00:04:34
an e-commerce website I guess if it's just your own website,
00:04:37
like something simple, it's quite easy.
00:04:40
But being in South Africa, where you're dealing with like a
00:04:44
lot of import taxes and high, high logistic costs If you want
00:04:48
to ship things overseas, you know everything that comes with
00:04:51
that import tax.
00:04:52
And how do you implement these costs now into your product?
00:04:56
Because your product is maybe, let's say, I don't know 20 US
00:05:00
dollars and your shipping cost is 60 US dollars, just to give
00:05:04
an example.
00:05:04
Like nobody's going to buy your product, you know.
00:05:07
So I needed a lot of time of actually becoming now a
00:05:11
financial person, like diving into the numbers and speaking to
00:05:16
people like how do you do this Pricing?
00:05:18
Speaker 1: strategy yeah.
00:05:20
Speaker 2: Yeah, pricing strategy.
00:05:21
But also, like, how do I implement this into a e-commerce
00:05:25
website that I've never.
00:05:27
I didn't even know WordPress.
00:05:29
I mean, I had to teach myself WordPress.
00:05:31
I had to teach like everything from scratch.
00:05:33
So what is SEO?
00:05:35
What is technical SEO?
00:05:36
What are all the things that come with e-commerce, digital
00:05:39
marketing?
00:05:39
So I learned a lot.
00:05:41
I'm not saying I'm there yet, I'm still learning but for me,
00:05:46
the journey was also part of what I'm really enjoying.
00:05:50
Speaker 1: Right, so you're still enjoying it.
00:05:52
Speaker 2: But what is?
00:05:52
I am, I am, but your question is like what is what we chair?
00:05:55
So what we chair is basically started off as an e-commerce
00:06:00
platform that was celebrating African contemporary design and
00:06:07
arts and crafts in a more like luxurious way, bringing like a
00:06:12
curated, contemporary luxury products to you or to the
00:06:16
customer, with a sustainable angle in it of like supporting
00:06:22
small businesses.
00:06:23
Most of my friends are female owned, half of them are black
00:06:27
female owned, so there's a lot of that involved in the whole
00:06:32
package that I'm.
00:06:33
Speaker 1: Why was that important to you?
00:06:36
Speaker 2: Why is it important to me?
00:06:37
Well, I mean for me.
00:06:38
I mean, even though I'm very light-skinned, like I'm coming
00:06:41
from a mixed race family, so it's not just.
00:06:46
It's not just.
00:06:47
You know, I grew up in the Netherlands but I've experienced
00:06:51
both sides, so I don't identify myself as only like as a white
00:06:56
person, even though maybe, depending on where you are,
00:07:00
Exactly it depends Exactly.
00:07:03
I know that's true, but for me I was always seen like I grew up
00:07:07
in a very white environment where I was seen as exotic or as
00:07:11
like different, because I had very curly hair and, like you
00:07:14
know, bigger lips, but then I still have blue eyes, so it's
00:07:17
like what's going on there.
00:07:18
So I think that is definitely, if you go back to like the core,
00:07:22
core, I think that's like part of it.
00:07:24
I think also I grew up with a mother that was it's always been
00:07:28
very involved in.
00:07:30
You know, she worked in like a refugee center.
00:07:32
She's like Hypno-terapist.
00:07:35
So I come from quite an old hippie background.
00:07:38
Right, right.
00:07:40
Speaker 1: I didn't want to use the word yes.
00:07:42
Speaker 2: Yes, I didn't know the other way to describe it,
00:07:45
but so I've always been very much in touch.
00:07:48
Like you know, my mother used to bring me to ashrams and, like
00:07:51
you know, alternative unconventional yes yes, and like
00:07:56
other cultures, and I think I always felt very, also attracted
00:08:00
to that and I guess, coming to South Africa from the luxury
00:08:04
industry in New York City in the US, I just saw that there's
00:08:09
quite a lot of my experience that I can bring to the table
00:08:12
here as well, right, that I can use in a positive way.
00:08:16
And what I was mentioning before is like I definitely had
00:08:19
that feeling of like.
00:08:20
I don't know, it was almost a feeling of like.
00:08:22
I'm not giving back it anyway, I just make people make look
00:08:25
good and make them consume, but what can I do?
00:08:28
That also fills me more as a person myself.
00:08:31
So I'm not stepping out of the luxury industry.
00:08:34
I'm not stepping out, you know, of the fashion and lifestyle,
00:08:37
but I'm just doing more approach to it, yeah different approach
00:08:41
of like conscious consumerism.
00:08:44
Speaker 1: Yeah, so yeah so I see that there are quite a few,
00:08:47
not e-commerce only, but you know a lot of small brands like
00:08:51
you have on your website.
00:08:53
You know, with this approach of handmade, there's a whole
00:08:57
movement of made in Africa.
00:08:59
What do you think is happening there?
00:09:01
What's this trajectory?
00:09:04
Speaker 2: Well, I think that the influence of African design,
00:09:09
like internationally, has always been there.
00:09:12
I think in the past designers borrowed or maybe stealing just
00:09:17
how you call it from African cultural heritage, depending on
00:09:21
how you look at it.
00:09:22
And I think now we are more at a point, I mean, if I read
00:09:27
articles and if I see what's happening that African fashion
00:09:30
or an Africa, you know, has gained more global recognition,
00:09:35
I think, and the influence is more recognized and seen, I
00:09:40
think, now worldwide in the fashion industry.
00:09:42
You know where I think it was always there, where you know,
00:09:46
like lots of designs would go to Africa, would go to Morocco, I
00:09:49
mean, think even back at like, if they're Saint Laurent, he was
00:09:51
super inspired by, you know, north Africa.
00:09:54
It was one of the first designers to use black models on
00:09:57
his runway, maybe he was even the first, if I'm correct.
00:10:00
And the use of like bold colors and patterns and, yeah, all
00:10:06
this reflection of like African landscape, I think.
00:10:08
So you know, if you look at Ankara and Kentay cloth, how it
00:10:13
became like, so popular and yeah , I just think that it's more
00:10:17
like globally recognized now.
00:10:18
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's kind of like a natural development of
00:10:22
and just also, you know, acknowledging where things come
00:10:26
from.
00:10:26
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, exactly that whole movement.
00:10:30
What you're saying, even if you , you know, if you look now at,
00:10:33
like, folk business, you see that there's much more attention
00:10:36
of like writing articles about African designers and like,
00:10:39
obviously, like with the table, my Google that won, like the
00:10:43
LFMH price, and like, yeah, you see more and you see, just, you
00:10:49
see it just more everywhere.
00:10:50
What you're saying, like it's definitely more on the surface,
00:10:53
which is, which is beautiful, because I think that recognition
00:10:56
is so deserved.
00:10:57
I feel like I'm still so new in a country I haven't even
00:11:02
traveled Africa yet like I can't say like I'm a speaker for,
00:11:06
like you know, pan-african, but I do love, I do love artisanal
00:11:11
work, I love craft, I love design and I just see a lot of
00:11:16
it here.
00:11:16
Speaker 1: So I'm just working with what I which much.
00:11:20
Speaker 2: I love yeah.
00:11:25
Speaker 1: Today's guest on Shades and Layers is Melanie
00:11:28
Oldenhoff, founder and creative director of what we Cherish, a
00:11:32
curated digital marketplace for sustainable African luxury.
00:11:36
There is no doubt that there has been a proliferation of
00:11:39
e-commerce platforms for African goods online, particularly
00:11:42
handcrafted fashion and accessories, and in the next
00:11:45
part of our conversation we discuss Melanie's take on the
00:11:50
drivers behind this development.
00:11:52
We also discuss how she recently transformed her
00:11:55
business model and added more services for her clients, as
00:11:59
well as why she considers what we cherish a collective.
00:12:01
So the artisanal side of things .
00:12:06
I see that a lot of African brands are focused on.
00:12:10
I would say, then, maybe slow design, yes, and you know, of
00:12:15
course, that brings with it its own challenges, because you can
00:12:18
scale maybe as quickly, and then you have to charge a lot more
00:12:23
for your goods, but then they end up getting consumed overseas
00:12:26
instead of locally.
00:12:27
I mean, how's that interplay working?
00:12:29
Interplay working in terms of, maybe, the brands that are on
00:12:33
your website as well.
00:12:35
Speaker 2: So to give you a little bit of insight.
00:12:38
So what I said, the original vision that I had, was like
00:12:42
creating the e-commerce website and direct to consumer and then
00:12:47
realizing also like how much money is needed in order to
00:12:52
become high in the Google ranking and competing with all
00:12:56
these big e-commerce websites.
00:12:59
I realized when I was talking to the vendors and to the brands
00:13:03
that there was actually just a lot of requests of like help
00:13:08
needed for visibility overseas.
00:13:11
So it didn't have to be specifically like an e-commerce
00:13:14
brand, but an e-commerce website that could also be like help of
00:13:18
like how do you photograph things for e-commerce purposes
00:13:21
or for marketing purposes, right , pr, marketing, all the aspects
00:13:28
that come with it.
00:13:29
So I decided just at the end of last year, while I was looking
00:13:34
at the website and everything, how things were going, that I
00:13:37
decided to go more business to business Instead of like
00:13:41
business to consumer, because with business to consumer, you
00:13:44
also only sell like one item at a time.
00:13:46
Now this item has to be made, this item has to be shipped and
00:13:50
what you say, there's very high cost that comes with it.
00:13:53
So, again, part of the entrepreneurial journey of like
00:13:56
feel an error, I guess, or not feel, but understanding better.
00:14:01
Yeah, just trying things out what you can do.
00:14:04
Yeah, trying things out.
00:14:05
So I've decided to go more business to business because I
00:14:08
work, because also I met more new people in the meantime and
00:14:12
I'm really loving, like you know , the African contemporary
00:14:16
design and like furniture and like what's happening out here
00:14:20
is just amazing.
00:14:21
So, yeah, so I'm working on that, like one of the brands
00:14:25
from Ghana they I mean, I'm talking with them to becoming
00:14:28
like a sales agency for them also.
00:14:30
So just to push more volume to break and more to stores, for
00:14:33
instance, instead of just the direct to consumer.
00:14:36
Speaker 1: Yes, oh, wow, ok, that's fantastic.
00:14:38
So then that means you're getting into the whole sales
00:14:42
space.
00:14:43
Speaker 2: Basically, yes yes, yeah, which is a whole new.
00:14:47
It's a new, a new part of the business plan.
00:14:50
Like that wasn't I mean I had I had in my mind when I started
00:14:54
the e-commerce site.
00:14:54
I remember I had a talk with one of the vendors that does
00:14:58
furniture and I was like it would be nice to have like kind
00:15:00
of an agency aspect of what we cherish as well, so that it's
00:15:04
really like a platform and not just a shop, you know, and
00:15:08
really being able to like tell the stories of these brands and
00:15:12
like why it's so beautiful.
00:15:14
And yeah, I think what I was talking with her.
00:15:17
I already had a conversation, but now it's coming more
00:15:20
actively on my path.
00:15:22
Speaker 1: So I'm taking that.
00:15:23
Speaker 2: That's exciting.
00:15:24
Speaker 1: Really, really exciting.
00:15:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah.
00:15:28
Speaker 1: You called yourself a collective.
00:15:29
Can you tell me what that means in real life?
00:15:35
Speaker 2: Well, well, I see I see a collective also as like
00:15:39
collaboration, right, and I feel like it's not, like it's me,
00:15:43
and then I am selling these brands.
00:15:45
So it's about me, I feel like it's about us and I think that's
00:15:49
the the collective part of like how I experience it, like, I
00:15:53
really think that like also changing the perception of, like
00:15:57
African goods, that one, one brand is not going to be enough
00:16:02
to showcase or push or show what is out there.
00:16:05
So I think as, yeah, so I think as a collective or as like a
00:16:09
group, you can show much, showcase much better all the
00:16:13
beautiful products that are being made here and that people
00:16:16
don't know about yet, yeah, so what's their?
00:16:19
reception and also in the working, yeah, and also in the
00:16:22
like working together with people, right, I mean, it's what
00:16:25
I said.
00:16:25
It's not like a one man show where it's like I'm telling you
00:16:28
what to do with this, what we're going to do, it's a collective,
00:16:31
it's like I'm working with you, you.
00:16:33
I also see I don't say vendors, normally as a partners, because
00:16:36
I feel like we do it all together to to work on this, you
00:16:40
know, to work on this showcasing all these beautiful
00:16:44
goods from from Africa.
00:16:46
Speaker 1: So how did you land your first client?
00:16:48
Speaker 2: Oh, Well, how did I land them?
00:16:51
Speaker 1: Yeah, Like did you decide?
00:16:54
Okay, these are the companies that need to be showcased.
00:16:58
I'm going to approach them, or yeah.
00:17:01
Speaker 2: It's actually kind of a cute story if I have the time
00:17:04
.
00:17:04
So when I met my partner in 2018, I was still living in New
00:17:09
York City I was visiting South Africa because I was here for a
00:17:14
job I was working at the time at the OTR2 tour for Beyonce and
00:17:18
Jaycee and I came to South Africa basically just for that.
00:17:21
So we met and, okay, we started spending time together and then
00:17:26
he came to New York City because he was working for
00:17:29
Afropunk at the time and he came to New York City because the
00:17:34
Brooklyn Afropunk was coming up and he brought me a little
00:17:40
wooden top with shea butter from Ghana and I was like.
00:17:46
and I was like, oh, this is so beautiful.
00:17:48
And he's like, yeah, a friend of mine gave it to me, Maria
00:17:51
McClory, of course.
00:17:52
How did I know?
00:17:52
So he brought it and I was obsessed with the look of that.
00:17:59
I was obsessed with the look of the product.
00:18:01
It was like a bamboo top and it was all in gray.
00:18:04
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've seen it, it was so pretty, yeah.
00:18:07
Speaker 2: And at the time I thought by myself and this was
00:18:10
before I even knew that I was going to move to South Africa I
00:18:13
was like, oh, maybe I should start an Amazon shop, because we
00:18:16
don't sell this here.
00:18:17
This would do so well.
00:18:18
So already these thoughts were there.
00:18:22
And then when I started doing research way further I fast
00:18:27
forward in the story when I was in South Africa, I started doing
00:18:30
research and I went back to that brand as well to look at
00:18:33
them and I wrote them.
00:18:35
I created a presentation of how I wanted the website to look
00:18:39
like and what my vision and my mission was for my e-commerce
00:18:44
platform.
00:18:44
And they said yes, and so they were actually the first also to
00:18:49
sign on with me and yeah, so the response was positive.
00:18:55
But then the real work started.
00:18:57
What I said I basically started reaching out with a concept to
00:19:03
defenders and they said yes, and they loved the presentation and
00:19:07
everything.
00:19:07
And then it was like okay.
00:19:08
Then I thought, oh, maybe I need like eight months to put this
00:19:12
together, and that became closer to two years to get it all
00:19:17
sorted.
00:19:17
But we're up and running now.
00:19:21
The website is online, it's there and I think it's something
00:19:27
that people can order.
00:19:28
But what I said like the focus from my entrepreneurial journey
00:19:30
is going more towards business to business, which means that I
00:19:37
am basically switching over more to like a wholesale agency and
00:19:40
also reaching out to like interior designers and
00:19:48
architects to showcase the products that are here and they
00:19:52
are often longer they are longer , and it's just a fact.
00:19:57
Speaker 1: It's just infrastructure also yeah.
00:20:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's just infrastructure and like I can't.
00:20:01
You know, I know a lot of people are working on this to
00:20:04
make changes, but like I can't change this overnight, so you
00:20:07
also have to roll with what you have, and I think architects and
00:20:13
interior designers that there's a lot of them that don't know
00:20:15
how many amazing stuff there is here and by reaching out to them
00:20:21
, I started working from this year on like a big digital
00:20:26
lookbook that I will start like sending out so that if people
00:20:30
have projects that they work on with lead time, we can actually
00:20:34
produce these products and it's still slow fashion then in a way
00:20:38
, exactly, yeah, oh that's really really great.
00:20:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know how have you been received in
00:20:45
Europe and the UK, your target market.
00:20:48
Speaker 2: Well, it's funny, I got to.
00:20:50
I think the US is, I think Europe is quite open to it, but
00:20:54
I also do everything by myself with a couple of people, but not
00:20:59
like you know, it's not.
00:21:00
I'm still in the startup phase, that's not.
00:21:02
Let's just be real right.
00:21:03
So I mean, wwd wrote a little mentioning article and there was
00:21:10
another website from yeah, they wrote a little article when I
00:21:13
launched which I was like oh my gosh.
00:21:15
And then I'm like this is real now.
00:21:19
Speaker 1: Right yeah, the fashion Bible has written about
00:21:23
working cherished.
00:21:26
Speaker 2: And then there was a website in LA that also gave me
00:21:30
some attention, and now you so you know, I mean, I think I also
00:21:35
, yes, but I also really believe in like organic growth.
00:21:39
I don't think there is such a thing as like overnight success.
00:21:43
I mean unless maybe I don't know , some big investor is now like,
00:21:48
okay, let's invest in this, then you maybe see some suddenly
00:21:51
like a big visibility.
00:21:52
But I really believe in like organic growth and I still
00:21:55
myself have to get to know a lot of vendors, reaching out to a
00:21:59
lot of vendors.
00:22:00
You know portfolio growth.
00:22:02
There's so much to do and what is interesting is like that I
00:22:07
thought originally that I would only go to the US and Europe and
00:22:12
then I also partnered up with a brand from Mozambique that does
00:22:17
amazing like social, responsible work and also asked
00:22:21
me, like Mel, like you know, you're so good in talking to
00:22:24
people and like can you not just like sell me in South Africa?
00:22:26
And I did a pop-up shop just to try it out and it sold actually
00:22:30
quite well and I was like, oh wow, there is also maybe a
00:22:33
market here as well, Like why am I only looking at the other
00:22:37
side?
00:22:38
You know, the grass is always greener at the neighbors right,
00:22:43
so I was like wait, wait, there is also possibility here.
00:22:48
So again, this all happened kind of last year, because I was
00:22:51
only online for like a year.
00:22:52
This all happened last year.
00:22:54
So this is a switch happening where, like now, I also start
00:22:59
talking to people here, to start creating things for here as
00:23:04
well, which is very, very nice.
00:23:08
Speaker 1: That things go like that.
00:23:09
I would think it's probably better than international
00:23:12
shipping, because it's so hard to you know all the brands.
00:23:15
Speaker 2: I speak to it's man, you know.
00:23:18
Right, but I still believe that .
00:23:22
I really believe that if it's the right person listening, I
00:23:26
really believe that there is, you know, a growing popularity
00:23:29
in.
00:23:30
You know there's a growing popularity in African arts and
00:23:32
aesthetics.
00:23:33
There's a growing popularity in sustainability.
00:23:37
After COVID, there's a rise in what you say in consumer demand
00:23:42
for, like artisanal and handmade goods.
00:23:44
I really believe there's an under curated market.
00:23:48
You know, if you look at marketplaces that that are the
00:23:52
leading ones, like Etsy and Amazon, they're not curated.
00:23:55
Speaker 1: You know it's all like, if you, I remember yeah,
00:23:58
everybody and anybody.
00:23:59
Speaker 2: So that was also my thing, I think.
00:24:01
Coming more from like a fashion background, I was like I see so
00:24:05
many beautiful things like why are they not curated in the same
00:24:08
space?
00:24:09
You know, why are they like kind of getting lost, maybe on
00:24:13
an Etsy because they don't know where else to to showcase their
00:24:17
products?
00:24:18
Speaker 1: so yeah, yeah, so what are your ambitions for this
00:24:22
platform?
00:24:25
Speaker 2: Oh, they're big Good let's hear it.
00:24:29
I mean, I will be honest with you, I really would love to to
00:24:34
become like the best you know sustainable platform in the B2B
00:24:40
for African contemporary luxury products.
00:24:44
So that is in, that is, in relationship to.
00:24:49
That can be furniture and home, like lifestyle, but also for
00:24:54
clean, beauty and accessories.
00:24:56
I stepped out of fashion, I leave that to other people.
00:24:59
But yeah, within the, within the home and lifestyle group,
00:25:04
there's a lot there.
00:25:04
Speaker 1: That's amazing.
00:25:05
I'm so excited for you.
00:25:08
Speaker 2: Yeah, I have big, big , big plans, but you know, I
00:25:12
know it will take time.
00:25:13
It's nice, but it's nice to have dreams.
00:25:15
You know, without dreams who's gonna?
00:25:18
Speaker 1: oh, gonna make them right.
00:25:19
It's not worthwhile.
00:25:20
Yeah, absolutely.
00:25:21
This is Shades and Lears, and it's now time to get into
00:25:29
Melanie Oldenhoff's personal story and we will expand on how
00:25:33
her experiences as a young woman growing up in the Netherlands
00:25:37
have shaped her entrepreneurial journey.
00:25:39
We will get into the Shades and Lears rapid fire and finally
00:25:45
discuss Melanie's big dreams for what we cherish.
00:25:48
You mentioned that you had quite an unconventional
00:25:52
upbringing.
00:25:52
Is there anything else from way back then that you can remember
00:25:57
that pointed to how you know, like your career choice and how
00:26:02
you ended up where you are today ?
00:26:04
Speaker 2: Well, when I was young, young, I want to become a
00:26:07
doctor, a surgeon, and which is funny, I remember as a child I
00:26:15
was even watching you know like operations and stuff, but I
00:26:19
didn't make it to what do you?
00:26:22
Speaker 1: mean you were watching operations and stuff.
00:26:24
Speaker 2: Like when I was younger, I liked all those kind
00:26:27
of things, like things that were related to like doctor and and
00:26:31
surgeons, and my mother my mother told me that, yeah, I
00:26:34
wasn't, but now I'm even afraid of getting a needle in my.
00:26:37
So I don't think I would have been the best doctor, but I
00:26:42
think I was always very individual, quite, I guess I
00:26:47
mean collected.
00:26:48
I remember when I was around 14 that I was in a quite preppy
00:26:52
school, but then I would wear Dr Martens with with with flowers
00:26:56
and rip port pens and and a leather, vintage salmon color
00:27:02
coat, like like this crazy outfit.
00:27:05
So I think I always had like this sense of yeah, how do you
00:27:09
say aesthetics, or like being attractive to aesthetics and to,
00:27:14
you know, to beautiful things yeah to the beautiful things
00:27:18
that I found beautiful right of course, at the time.
00:27:22
Yeah, and very independent.
00:27:25
I mean I was a very independent child and you know I biked to
00:27:29
school and I don't know it's hard.
00:27:33
I almost have to ask my friend.
00:27:34
It's hard to tell about myself, but I definitely.
00:27:37
It's funny what I just did.
00:27:39
Last year I did an entrepreneurship course here in
00:27:43
South Africa and one of the the one of the things that they made
00:27:48
you do was you had to do a couple of personality tests to
00:27:52
see what kind of entrepreneur you are, and so what came out of
00:27:56
there is that I'm more like a hard-minded entrepreneur, so
00:28:00
which, if I look at that, it's funny, because it came out of
00:28:04
the personality test that it just basically fits with what
00:28:07
I'm actually doing right now.
00:28:10
Right, like, like collaboration .
00:28:12
I like to collaborate with people.
00:28:14
I don't like to work alone.
00:28:16
I'm empathetic, yeah, like all these like elements that that
00:28:20
comes to like more hard-minded or hard driven personality.
00:28:25
Speaker 1: So I think I'm in the right space yeah, yeah, yeah
00:28:31
yeah yeah, yeah, the reason I ask is because of my next
00:28:34
question, and it's to do with if you had to write a memoir right
00:28:39
, you mentioned that your mixed race.
00:28:42
You were something of an exotic kid when you were growing up,
00:28:46
but you know, if you had to summarize your life and give it
00:28:49
a title, what would you call it and why?
00:28:51
Speaker 2: ooh, I didn't look at it from a childhood point of
00:28:54
view.
00:28:55
Speaker 1: Oh, you can look at it from career, leisure career.
00:28:57
Speaker 2: Yes, yeah, yeah like maybe from from from from career
00:29:01
, I would say like something like fashion with purpose, a
00:29:05
journey from Amsterdam to Africa , oh nice, um, because you know
00:29:12
it started there.
00:29:13
I mean, I studied fashion, uh, management and technology, um,
00:29:17
so that's where I have a bachelor degree in and then I
00:29:20
obviously moved to New York and from New York to Africa, so I
00:29:24
can call it fashion with a purpose, like it's a journey,
00:29:26
right, a journey of, of learning everything and yeah, yeah, fun.
00:29:32
Speaker 1: That's what I, what would come to mind, yeah and if
00:29:35
you had to turn the book into a film, who would you pick to be
00:29:39
the lead actress in?
00:29:40
Speaker 2: that.
00:29:41
Um well, I really love Tracy Ellis Ross.
00:29:44
Um, I think she's very charismatic, she's confident,
00:29:48
she's funny.
00:29:49
She seems also like kind of an intuitive person similar spirit
00:29:52
to yours, yeah yeah, and I mean this is just.
00:29:57
This is not talking for myself, but I think she's a beautiful
00:29:59
woman, so I would be very honored if she would come to me
00:30:04
and then maybe if it was my younger me when I was younger,
00:30:07
maybe we'll be then Beesendaya or something.
00:30:09
It's fashionable, funny, a little bit quirky.
00:30:13
So yeah, but that's a question also, you started saying I love
00:30:19
that.
00:30:24
You are a local A local now, yes , Five years, so it goes fast.
00:30:31
I mean I'm already half of the time.
00:30:33
I was a decade in New York and I'm half a decade here.
00:30:36
So it's crazy how the time flies.
00:30:38
Yeah, but people will say that when they get older.
00:30:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, of course I mean, and then once kids arrive,
00:30:44
that's it, it's over, like your sense of time is just it's gone
00:30:50
, yeah, yeah.
00:30:51
Great.
00:30:52
Is there anything that you would like to mention about what
00:30:56
we cherish that you think maybe we didn't touch on?
00:30:59
Speaker 2: I mean, I definitely think for people that listen to
00:31:02
a podcast about entrepreneurship that it's nice to hear that
00:31:08
it's not always roses and roses and lavender.
00:31:13
Yeah yeah, I feel like often on the podcast and especially, as
00:31:16
I can say, like often, the American ones.
00:31:18
It's very much about what is it ?
00:31:19
The school of greatness?
00:31:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:22
Overnight success yeah, yeah, yeah.
00:31:25
Speaker 2: Like what's fair, what you see a lot or what you
00:31:27
hear a lot, but it's not.
00:31:28
And I'm like in the middle of the journey, you know, to make
00:31:34
things happen.
00:31:35
And as far as I enjoy the journey, I'm also very blessed
00:31:40
and grateful that I have a partner that completely supports
00:31:43
me, because, thankfully, he has a nine to five job, because I
00:31:48
don't you know.
00:31:48
And so, yeah, I think there's a lot of things that come with it
00:31:54
.
00:31:54
That is really not that easy and , for instance, what I said,
00:31:57
like when I launched the e-commerce shop, like in my head
00:32:00
I was like, ah, I'm going to buy a BMW next week, you know.
00:32:06
But like you know, for instance , you just think you launched it
00:32:09
, you're like, oh enthusiastic.
00:32:10
You think like, and now it's going to happen, and then it's
00:32:12
just quiet, right, yeah.
00:32:14
And now, like, how do you deal with the fact that things are
00:32:18
not exactly as they are going by your plan?
00:32:21
And I think, with my personality and the luck I guess
00:32:26
that I have, that I've always been a freelancer is that I know
00:32:31
how to hustle.
00:32:32
Yeah, I hustle like no one else .
00:32:36
Speaker 1: Well, new York will do too right.
00:32:37
Speaker 2: Yeah, new York will do too.
00:32:38
So, no for sure.
00:32:41
And especially as a freelancer, if you don't have like a full
00:32:43
time job, you know, like you know getting clients continuing,
00:32:48
continuing those relationships, like all of that, it's like
00:32:51
it's so important.
00:32:52
So so, yeah, I want to say like it's not always everything is
00:32:56
not always how it looks like on Instagram, for sure, but I
00:33:00
definitely, really, really still believe in what I'm doing
00:33:04
Otherwise I wouldn't do it.
00:33:06
I really believe that there is a lot of growth possible and,
00:33:10
yeah, I have big visions.
00:33:11
I have big still big dreams of where it can go, like you know
00:33:15
someone, someone like Amira Rasu , who's doing the folklore.
00:33:18
Connect, yeah, amira, if you hear this, answer my LinkedIn
00:33:24
emails, please.
00:33:25
But you know, like someone like her, she's like a real example
00:33:30
for me of like you know how to bring product overseas, how to
00:33:34
bring it to the US, and but also , you know, when I look at those
00:33:38
stories, it's like she also got like 1.7 million US dollar in
00:33:42
like pre seeding funds.
00:33:44
Right, I don't have that, I have been doing it all from
00:33:47
scratch.
00:33:47
So it's like it's those things also make a big difference.
00:33:50
So I think, with with, we say, we say in Dutch like we roll
00:33:56
with with what we got right, we wrote about what we got.
00:33:59
So I think, as where I'm at now , I still feel very confident
00:34:03
that there's definitely a lot of possibilities.
00:34:06
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there's lots of possibilities.
00:34:09
That's why I wanted to speak to you.
00:34:11
It's very exciting.
00:34:13
I mean, it's always these things that you're looking for
00:34:15
but can never find, and yeah, well, I hope, I really, really,
00:34:19
really hope that someone listening will approach you with
00:34:25
big funds, you know finances.
00:34:28
Speaker 2: I mean, is that a desire?
00:34:29
Speaker 1: Yes, or you're just fine going organically.
00:34:32
Speaker 2: I'm fine going organically.
00:34:33
I mean, if I also, when I said listen to podcasts, I sometimes
00:34:36
hear like stay away from the big money because it's not all like
00:34:40
bring, bring always.
00:34:41
Yeah, they want shares and they want all these things from you
00:34:45
as well.
00:34:45
So can you still do your creative vision or your
00:34:49
sustainable vision, what you envisioned originally?
00:34:51
Can you hold on to that when you get, like, the big money?
00:34:54
So I am actually happy to to start small and and start
00:35:01
building and building a trusting place, and I really believe in
00:35:04
like the right people come on your path when it's the right
00:35:07
time.
00:35:07
Absolutely, and yeah, that's that's my belief and I'm working
00:35:11
with with that and all the all the vendors and businesses and
00:35:15
the partners that I'm working with and they really believe in
00:35:18
it too, and so I think that's what you need as a collective is
00:35:22
that you have the same belief that what you're doing is the
00:35:26
right thing.
00:35:26
Speaker 1: Great yeah.
00:35:28
Speaker 2: Wonderful.
00:35:29
I love that.
00:35:30
Thank you, and where can people find you?
00:35:32
Well, they can go to what we cherish dot com.
00:35:35
They can go to the Instagram, which is at what we cherish.
00:35:39
They can probably find me, melanie Oldenhoff, if they want
00:35:42
to DM me directly.
00:35:44
Speaker 1: Why?
00:35:44
That's it from me.
00:35:45
Thank you so much for your time .
00:35:47
I'm glad we could get this together, given the current
00:35:50
challenges.
00:35:54
Speaker 2: It is actually right now, no load shedding.
00:35:56
Your morning, my early afternoon, so it's perfect.
00:36:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, thank you so much, yeah, and that is all
00:36:05
from me this time around.
00:36:07
All socials and other links are included in the show notes.
00:36:11
Thank you for listening and for your ongoing support.
00:36:14
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00:36:18
friend.
00:36:18
Thank you and until next time.
00:36:22
Please do take good care.